From ANDRAS JONES: This Pop Oracle session with TODD LAWRENCE and KIRA LYNN CAIN requires some context. Todd and I have been debating each other online for about a year now. These debates have mirrored the debate that has been raging within the Democratic party for a long time and really heated up after the 2016 primary. Until recently the tenor of these debates between Todd and I has been intelligent and respectful (like the conversation we have in this segment) but lately the dehumanizing, gaslighting language has been ratcheting up. Example of this would be calling those who felt disenfranchised during the primary as “whiners”, accusing those who point to voting irregularities and the revelations of the DNC’s working against Sanders voters as “conspiracy theorists”, calling journalists who question the “Russian hacking” narrative of being “foreign agents”, “Russian dupes”, “spies” and “criminals”. When this kind of bullying speech creeps into our political debates it only serves those who benefit from sewing disunity among the majority of Americans who. if we were unified, would challenge the ruling elites in both national parties. Even as polite as is our exchange here, you can tell Todd and I are miles apart in how we view things. Rather than wrongly define Todd’s point of view (something he and other self-described Democrats have been doing to me online) I’ll just encourage you to listen and see what you make of it. There is one last depressing bit of this story. The morning after taping this seemingly unifying exchange, I responded online to a post attacking journalists like Glen Greenwald and Julian Assange and was name-called, straw-manned, and shouted down. Todd encouraged these posts with his “likes” and his own posts about “some progressives” who have gone “down the rabbit hole” and when I pointed out that this kind of thing was at odds with the unity we seemed to be in agreement about on Radio8Ball I was accused of being “thin-skinned” and “rude” to Todd. I’ve been thinking all week about how I would contextualize our exchange and this is the best I can do. If Todd wishes to add his own thoughts on the matter I’ll be happy to post his comments here. I hope we can find our way back to respectfully and compassionately debating the direction of the Democratic party and the nation without devolving to the level of Trump-style name calling.

From TODD LAWRENCE:

Hey Andras,

Thanks for having me on the show.  I really love what you do and appreciated the exchange we have in this episode.

I do think it was somewhat unfortunate to see the blog post that you wrote accompany it.  Beyond the fact it attributes things to me that were said by others (and misrepresents some of what I did say), I’m just not sure how litigating our online exchanges serves the goal of unity. Besides…who could possibly be interested?  So tempting as it is to parse all of the accusations you tossed out, I’m going to let all of that go and apologize for any triggering words I’ve used.  But beyond that, I’d like to focus this note on the substance of our disagreement.  

I wish that my phone issues had allowed me to hear Kira better.  In listening to the podcast today, I was struck by her comments on the arbitrariness of our systems.  Systems of justice.  Systems of oppression.  Systems of power. That gets pretty neatly at what I’ve been trying to articulate to you.  

In the USA, delivering political power to the people  (at least…in a progressive/Democrat sense – as opposed to a Trumpian/tea-party sense)is all about winning at an unfair game.  The electoral college stacked against us.  Geography is stacked against us. The composition of the Senate is stacked against us.  Our house districts are gerrymandered. Our churches often pit God against us…and lord knows the money is against us. And that is only what the “establishment Democratic Party” is facing.

Meanwhile – an insurgent movement looking to take over the Democratic Party is going to have to win at a doubly unfair game.  They will have to vanquish those that currently control the party AND THEN face the entire liturgy above.

What I’ve been trying to say is that our democracy simply doesn’t work as an exact expression of the will of the people.  It is arbitrary and unfair , and ultimately must be viewed accurately as a crucible.  A series of hurdles that must be cleared in order to take control. There simply is no authority to appeal to in order to make our system fair or non-arbitrary.  We have no referees that sit outside of the thing we’ve created.

So our feelings about all of the above may be valid.  But they don’t help.  It doesn’t matter that you feel robbed by the DNC or that I feel robbed by the Comey letter.  The next go-round will have similar tests.  Whether they are fair or unfair will be beside the point.  Hopefully our past losses make us stronger – but we can’t afford to look at any obstacle as anything other than as a test of our will.

This is where coming together is so vital.  

There will be a primary, and it is possible that we won’t agree on the best candidate to meet the challenges I’ve described. Good people can disagree.  Maybe even disagree vehemently. Unity doesn’t mean kumbayah.

What it means is that we accept the  outcome of whatever is decided in our primary – and then we fight like hell for whomever has come through the crucible.  This will be harder for you to do, as your preferred candidate will likely still have some institutional barriers in the way.  But it is also possible that those barriers will fall away, or that the progressive candidate will simply clear them with ease.  The Democratic Party is changing, and  either this election or one soon after will see power handed to the Progressive wing.  If that happens this time, I won’t hold back my support one iota.  Part of the compact of being in the party together is committing to coming together fully and completely for the real fight.

You will probably be surprised to know it, but I’m actually rooting for Progressives to ultimately transform our country.  I simply think that the road to getting there is a longer one than you do.  Not because I want it to wait (or think that it doesn’t matter), but because my honest opinion of the political science is that the foundation hasn’t been built.  That said…I applaud what Bernie Sanders and Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez did when they went to Kansas.  They have begun to do the work that so many before them avoided.  

I completely get that you have reasons for feeling cynical about the Democratic Party.  I get that a lot of folks do.  But there was a reason that Sanders ran as a Democrat.  He recognized that the Democratic Party is the only vehicle we have to bring about meaningful progressive change in this country.  So given this…I implore you and anyone reading this to think twice about encouraging others to be cynical about the Democratic Party.  It is important that we all see ourselves as Democrats and maintain some semblance of commitment to the party (and yes…it’s brand).

This doesn’t mean that you can’t dislike its leaders, or criticize its current state.  But we all need to stay inside of it and commit to having our ongoing battle for its soul.  It won’t ever be a fair fight.  No fight is.  But it is an important fight.

So Andras…will you please stick around and keep fighting with me?  You don’t have to like me, and you don’t even have to be nice to me.  Just commit to the battle – and when you win, I’ll accept it and I’ll follow you into battle.  Will you do me the same honor?  I can’t promise to always be nice or agreeable…or even particularly unified (and I wouldn’t expect you to be any better).  But I can commit to working it out with you.

Are you in?

Todd

From ANDRAS JONES: Thanks for responding Todd. Of course I’m in. And if the DNC tries to force a weak corporate stooge like Biden on an electorate looking for policy over personality then they will lose no matter what I do or say. All I’m asking is that you personally refrain from using gaslighting and dehumanizing language against progressives when we are drawing attention to the systemic issues that you acknowledge are confronting us at every level. We are not whiners. We are not conspiracy theorists. We are not down the rabbit hole. And pointing this out doesn’t make us thin-skinned. We ARE the voters the Democrats need to win. They tried bullying us last time and we got Trump. It is now time for the Democratic party to live up to its name, behave democratically, and meet voters where we are, which is among the 99%. This has nothing to do with you personally or whether I like you (which I do) but just because I like you doesn’t mean I’ll tolerate bullying language directed at the voters we need to beat Trump, the Republicans and the corporate Democrats who want us to believe that people in the south or the midwest don’t want health care, a living wage and an inhabitable planet for future generations as much as people in the coasts. And if you think referring to Biden as a corporate stooge is bullying language I’m sorry but that’s not the same as attacking voters. If Biden has people lining up to fill stadiums to hear him talk about his policies those voters will demand my respect. I’m not saying you’re corporate stooge if you support him (although it sounds like you would prefer that progressives lead the party) but Biden is a loser in the mold of Kerry, Gore and HRC. I’m not down with rallying behind a corporate news annointed loser when we have a whole slew of Democratic Socialists filling stadiums and inspiring the same kind of voters who elected Obama twice.

Feel free to continue the dialogue and I will post it here unedited.

From Todd Lawrence:

Andras –

I was disappointed to see that you chose in your response to continue to accuse me of “gaslighting” and indulging in “dehumanizing language.”

With that in mind – let’s simply print the Facebook post in question up and allow people to make up their own minds whether you were treated as you say, or whether you are hyperbolizing.

After this…I’m done.

Yours,
Todd

BIRDS NEARBY

The prison door opens wide in the colorless land

Crime is dry without a drop to drink

So many eyes so many hands to be denied

Freedom

Under an open sky

With songs of birds nearby

Birds birds birds… nearby

Crime is dry in exile

Exile exile exile

We commit crime we are exile we are crime we are exile

birds nearby nearby